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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
Question to table devs about flippers?

I checked what FP does with flipper when flipper-button is released.

Right now FP:
- aplies omega = 18.0 to put flipper at bass (rest is physics engine).
- without any delay, flipper starts to move down, at begin "fast", when little slower, close to flipper base position it is half of start speed.

In my opinion it is very far from reality.

Question:
Do we want to change this?
Here is what is possible:
- Set "Release omega" for every flipper, so we will have control how fast it moves back to start position
- Set "rotation chart" for flipper releasing. This way we will be able for exampe: delay rotation, make it slower at begin, faster at end.

When i looked at VP10 documentation about flippers params it seams to be important part.

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Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.4-240, released: Aug 16, 2018


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Arkansas, USA
If I can figure out how to use it, I would use it. If it requires adding new script, it is usually difficult for me to figure it out.

George


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:04 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Abbotsford
ravarcade wrote:
Question to table devs about flippers?

I checked what FP does with flipper when flipper-button is released.

Right now FP:
- aplies omega = 18.0 to put flipper at bass (rest is physics engine).
- without any delay, flipper starts to move down, at begin "fast", when little slower, close to flipper base position it is half of start speed.

In my opinion it is very far from reality.

Question:
Do we want to change this?
Here is what is possible:
- Set "Release omega" for every flipper, so we will have control how fast it moves back to start position
- Set "rotation chart" for flipper releasing. This way we will be able for exampe: delay rotation, make it slower at begin, faster at end.

When i looked at VP10 documentation about flippers params it seams to be important part.


Yes the flippers still need some work. They still are a lot better than before, but even vpx could use some improvement in certain areas as well.

I havent been able to do any work on the physics, and doesnt look like I will for a while, as family, new relationship etc. Still, if you havent seen these before, this is the best place to go to to learn "flipper tricks" and it should give you a real good idea on how the flipper actually works, like the amount of power that goes through a flipper.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-WQLGFMr97DnxeE1Rmi-wAwa-Vm7D-7i

There's also a FastFlips mod for vpx that may help.

I think one of the things missing is the omega increases as the flipper is rotating up, it's very weak to start as it takes time for the coil to fully charge up to it's maximum. Your description of when the flipper is going down is sort of correct.

A very brief explanation that is totally non technical but as a abstract statement is that there are in sense two coils with the flipper. The main one, that handles the sweep of the flipper, that is far more powerful, and a second coil, that uses low power to keep the flipper in a upright position at the top of it's arch, without burning out the main flipper coil (sorry I don't know the percentage difference) If you read this link, it explains how it works...

http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/bally_flipper1.htm

Maybe I will find some time, and start working again. Try to help when I can though. :)

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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
@blue:
Thanks a lot. Realy nice slow motion flipper tricks.

I'm not an expert, but from video it look, like some tricks can be done only on selected machines.
For example "Post Pass" require "fast start" (high flipper rotation right after button is pressed) and "Tap Pass" require "slow start" (flipper moves slow at begin).

Also on computer we have some limitations. You can't control how fast os gives info about button is pressed/releases. For example i don't belive FP will be able to detect correctly things like pushing button for ~5ms. There will be alway ~16ms resolution when FP check keyboard (~16ms = 60Hz FPS).

In other words, if you set physics to make one trick posible another will become imposible.


Here are my results, when i try to recreate one trick with control how flipper is moved after it is released.
https://youtu.be/iwIciIie_O4

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http://www.ravarcade.pl
Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.4-240, released: Aug 16, 2018


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2125
Location: Ontario, Canada
ravarcade wrote:
@blue:
Here are my results, when i try to recreate one trick with control how flipper is moved after it is released.
https://youtu.be/iwIciIie_O4

Wow that looks really cool.
How are you using the Flipper test tool for that...you are still in control of flippers aren't you?

ravarcade wrote:
@blue:
I'm not an expert, but from video it look, like some tricks can be done only on selected machines.
For example "Post Pass" require "fast start" (high flipper rotation right after button is pressed) and "Tap Pass" require "slow start" (flipper moves slow at begin).

In other words, if you set physics to make one trick posible another will become imposible.


We can change the physics of course based on what we want to do....
All you need is a button sequence or cheat button that toggles between them and a visual
aid either subtle or obvious that tells you which physic is currently active.

For instance an "obvious way" would be:
Code:
if keycode = 48 then
FlipperTrick = FlipperTrick + 1
Select Case FlipperTrick
 Case 1 FlipperPhysic1: FlipperTrickLight1.State = BulbOn
Case 2 FlipperPhysic2: FlipperTrickLight2.State = BulbOn
etc....
End Select
End if


After trick attempt, you would need a BackToDefaultTimer.Set True, 1000 or Sub TriggerOpto_hit or Sub Bumper_hit etc...

or something to revert back to default physics for normal "none trick" shots

A more subtle or organic way is to use the flippers to toggle between trick selections
activated by a timer.
In monster bash, I used a timer for "Game Status Information". But in this case , If you hold ball on flipper for 5 seconds then Flipper Trick Selection occurs. It will change to a different selected trick every couple of seconds automatically or you can toggle opposite flipper to go to next choice.

A subtle visual aid could be rotation of a graphic on top of flippers . Like a little arrow or something (a Flipper "Weather Vane"). we can use Bam Texture swap to swap the flipper graphics...

You could even have flipper graphics on a timer....so it will temporarily show a flipper texture with a number one on top and then it will quickly transition back to normal texture..


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
Quote:
How are you using the Flipper test tool for that...you are still in control of flippers aren't you?

I use BAM menu to quickly bring ball to desired position.
In "Flippers Testing Tool" you can enter ball position, move direction and speed. If you are in lines when you change ball, then BAM will bring ball (i it is on table) to that position.
So, on video you can see:
- I already set ball position to plece little above flipper base.
- everey time ball goes away i press quickly 2 time Q (show bam menu/hide bam menu). This brings ball to defined place.
On video i'm playing normaly. With keyboards. BAM do not controll flippers solenoid. I (Player) do it.

I just set flipper rotation charts for "SolenoidOn" and "SolenoidOff".
So, i have deffined 2 charts used to controll "omega" when flipper is activated (SolenoidOn) and deactiveted (SolenoidOff).
For SolenoidOn: flipper rotation is accelerating.
For SolenoidOff: flipper rotation is: small qick move down for 10ms, when stop moving for ~50 ms, when after 70ms flipper start rotation with acceleration.

Basics is: when you release flipper button and press it again after ~60-120ms flipper is close to "high" position and can quickly push ball.

With normal FP physics flipper is in 3/4 way down or already at bottom.

Quote:
Quote:
In other words, if you set physics to make one trick posible another will become imposible.

We can change the physics of course based on what we want to do....

Hold your horses.
I reffering to real world machines.
I mean, that for example on Addam's familly you can do "Post Pass" like on this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3ITbeG ... dex=6&t=0s.
For me it looks like this:
- after release of flipper button i see: flipper rotate back to base and after ~100ms (3-5 frames in 30 fps video on youtube) flippere is ~3/4 way down
- when it is activated and in 1-3 frames (guess ~50ms) it is fully up
So, player is holding button, release it and after ~100ms or less button is pressed again.
In ~150-200ms flipper rotated 3/4 way down and 3/4 way up.

"Tap Pass", on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbyKhPE ... wa-Vm7D-7i
I see 3-4 frames when flipper goes just very little up and down. So, whole move is ~100-133 ms. In that time flipper button is pressed and release. So to do this, button must be pressed for ~50-60 ms? It is hard to belive that human can do it regularly. I belive button was pressed much longer and flipper on that table have different "rotation chart".
Also force passed from flipper to ball is few times lower than in "post pass".

Can this "tap pass" be done on "addams familly".

------------------------------

So, you want to change physics on table to make one shot from flipper. Yeah! Lets change ball mass, gravity, flipper omega, bouncynes (elastiCoef), how flipper react when user press/release button, mass, table angle. It is crazy. In case you didn't notice it was sarcasm.
Please don't try to do this.
That what you ask was: Lets create "physics for all tables", may user change on demand physics for different gameplay styles. All should work out of box for every table. It is madness. Somthing like this don't have right to exist. You want to jump from "broken FP flippers" to "ultimate happines for everyone".
Right now we should focus on how to set physics to have closes to reality behave for selected table. How to set things to make atleast some tricks possible for selected tables. Learn how to tweak it.

_________________
http://www.ravarcade.pl
Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.4-240, released: Aug 16, 2018


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2125
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
So, you want to change physics on table to make one shot from flipper. Yeah! Lets change ball mass, gravity, flipper omega, bouncynes (elastiCoef), how flipper react when user press/release button, mass, table angle. It is crazy. In case you didn't notice it was sarcasm.
Please don't try to do this.

Sorry Rav. I am just talking ideas....and you have done all the work.

Dynamic Flipper coding is changing the physics for every shot based on whatever is best.
Contact point etc....

I am just suggesting how we can change physics if we wish based on trick shots.

You are right it is crazy and likely a waste of time and certainly not a priority...but I was just talking possibilities

This dynamic coding opens pandoras box for lots of possibilities, many ideas will be bad ones....and I do not want to waste your time. I am sorry.

Feel free to be sarcastic and dismiss any of my dumb ideas :)


Quote:
That what you ask was: Lets create "physics for all tables", may user change on demand physics for different gameplay styles. All should work out of box for every table. It is madness. Somthing like this don't have right to exist. You want to jump from "broken FP flippers" to "ultimate happines for everyone".
Right now we should focus on how to set physics to have closes to reality behave for selected table. How to set things to make atleast some tricks possible for selected tables. Learn how to tweak it.


I do think this is a " breakthrough" but I don't expect a miracle.
I don't expect an out of the box perfect solution and I expect people will still need to tweak.
I am very impressed how it works though. Great work Rav !
But don't be frustrated or discouraged and I will back off with my ideas.

Don't take me too seriously please


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 930
Here is my progress raport:

BAM beta, v235
https://www.ravarcade.pl/beta/BAM.dll

Test table from my new video:
https://www.ravarcade.pl/beta/FlipperExt-demo-2.fpt

My new video:
https://youtu.be/47UfGFcaZmc
(it is still uploading).

Here is video with trick i try to recreate:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2ZJQYk6OMk
"Slingshot pass" time in video: 0:15

What new in BAM:
- you can set "release omega" for all flippers or for one flipper (like this: RightFlipperExt.ReleaseOmega = 30). Default FP value is 18.0
- you can modify both charts used to control omega (when SolenoidOn is called) and "ReleaseOmega" (when SolenoidOff is called)
- SLOW MOTION in FP. So, i want to have nice "slow motion" videos from FP :)
In BAM menu you can assign key on keyboard to turn on/off slowmotion and set "FPS" ratio. Slow motion works better if you enable vertical sync in FP video rendering options.
How slow motion works? You can see EVERY step in simulation.

On video:
- how to use slow motion,
- how flippers rotate (in slow motion :))
- how i do that "shlighshot pass" (in normal speed and in slow motion)
- how i set "starting ball postion" near flipper to make easier testing

On demo table, i set that rotation charts very simple way:
- 2 points for SolenoidOn: (0ms , 50%) , (40ms , 100%)
- 2 points for SolenoidOff: (0ms, 40%), (60ms, 150%)
This way flipper rotation will accelerate.

Note, i don't use in this table default FP physics. For me ball is too slow and boring. Here is what i changed:
- ball mass increased, now = 30
- gravity increased, now = 10000
- newtonDamping = 0.009 (this make ball slow down if it is too fast, and ball moves more realistic way)
- flipper mass reduced 10 times, now = 2000
With reduced flipper mass, when fast ball hit flipper, you can see small "move" of flipper.
I saw this on one video and i want to have it.

That are my settings. I spend in tweeking it ~5 minutes and they are not designed to be usefull on normal table.

Right now trick from video i want to recreate works only from left flipper.
To make it work i have to tweak: flipper omega, both charts. "prehit" subroutines are empty.

If you try to reproduce it on other tables you will have to tweak a lot of physics params.
It took me ~1h to learn what and how to set it.

If you compare that video with previous, you will see, that flippers on old was set different way. For example after "SolenoidOff" it moves little bit, when for ~80ms it almost stops. Now it not stops. This is table dev choice how flipper should moves.

_________________
http://www.ravarcade.pl
Better Arcade Mode
current BAM version: v1.4-240, released: Aug 16, 2018


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:12 pm
Posts: 1698
Location: Arkansas, USA
Rav,

I think there are times I will be able to use slow motion. Sometimes I need to analyze the way the ball hits objects on a table. ...But if you want to record video in slow motion, it might work better to record the video at a high frame rate during game play at normal speed and then slow the frame rate down during playback of the video. That is how they do it at the movies anyway.

Just an idea,

George


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 Post subject: Re: BAM Dynamic Flipper Breakthrough !!
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Abbotsford
I will look at the video shortly, just a idea I had at 3 in the morning... :)

My keyboard is a steel series, and it is very hard to "flick" a key, so fine tuning the speed on one main flipper will not work... unless you use my flipper mod and have a very slow flipper set to hit the ball at the tip first... hmmm

The other thing is with the flipper divided up in contact points, it helps big time. BUT, a few of these flipper tricks are not just dependent on the point of contact of the flipper, speed etc but also where it actually strikes the ball.

You see how a post transfer from one flipper to another is done, but these use Williams flippers. Now the old Solid State Ballys had a far more sensitive base, so if the ball was cradled by a flipper, and if you timed it right, instead of the ball going straight up, and rebounding off the sling post, it would actually travel up the flipper lane a bit, and then roll back down. It would roll up the flipper until it almost made it over, and then roll back down the flipper. A quick flip from the flipper would always make the set of inline targets to the right of the ramp from the right side flipper. (Using Flash Gordon as a example)

Because the flipper would actually hit the ball not directly at the bottom, but more towards the right side of the ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znjcb3Qu8mA
This is the PAPA Flash Gordon game. at 3:30 in the video, he actually did it but was demoing a flipper to flipper transfer (and messed it up) but you see how the ball behaved when it was hit by the flipper from a cradle. This video by the way is a good example of a lot of the tricks as well. FG was a real bitch to play sometimes, but one of my absolute favorites.

If you can find a way to do with the ball object what you did with the flippers, this would help big time not only with the flippers but also when the ball strikes another object. As a degree of angle maybe? FP has to have this already, but like everything else, the math settings is FUBARed. With present settings at least.

Code:
If Ball.Surfacehit =190 then
 ' add angle/spin mass correction as needed
End If


Hope you understand this one rav.

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