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 Post subject: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: Sicily-Italy
I open this new thread, so all the blame falls on me, and if I have to be kicked out of this site, well, then either that comes.
I'm really angry, with who? with my PC, (because for now I can only, I repeat only, allow me this fun...)and with the many talks that are made here, in gopinball, and very few table creations.

then let's talk clearly, how many, here we make tables? how many, here we are active?
we talk, we talk, we talk, but who does really something?
one speaks only of what interests oneself, including myself.....

ok, I'm the last one as a user who understands very little about bam, just a few days ago, I started to understand more, since I'm doing a table, which will use bam....but the first to have crazy ideas, which then Rafal, has realized.

now, instead of talking, talking, talking, who tried the new release of rav?
only,franzleo?plus none?

if no one tries it(new bam), or does not care, I wonder why Rafal is still here, listening to only two people, and others asking for things outside of which you are talking, and not sending everyone to that country?

I have not tried it yet, because I asked franzleo, to give me some more detailed information,among Italians we understand each other better, what happens with the new installation....in fact, as I assumed there are problems, still bam from crash errors...as I have now,and I still do not understand why, or whose fault it is, this crash happens

So, I have no hair on my tongue, someone can tell me, but forget about that or that...but I am of the old order, all for one and one for all.

so I say, this new installation of bam, with fp following, I expect it a little different...but I always have to thank Rafal for the great job he does. And he certainly can not do it as he likes us..

but I have a big problem, I can not release the pinball nes table, with bam, that crash every three four times...

so if someone else, like franzleo and me, has some kind of problem, SPEAK NOW.


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:46 am 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 350
Location: Abbotsford
I can understand the frustration, a lot of us were frustrated by the circumstances over the last year or so. Several have left, because nothing was done about it, and we all just got tired. The community has suffered greatly because of it, a lot of people have left, and that is all our fault. We were so frozen because of things like "respect" and others we just didn't do what we should have done years ago. But now we have started.

- Finally we will have one way. The unified installer was something that should have been done years ago, not just for people who are new to FP's sake, but for the developers sake. This multiple exe business has done nothing but left a sour taste in my mouth, I've had it with all the problems caused by it, and it is a absolute blessing to finally not have to worry about it. I'm pretty sure several authors were getting tired of having to help people because they insist on useing different exe's, now that we have decided on just one exe, it means we can shape our gameplay better as well.
- The new installer is a beta. A lot of people who already have it will wait till it's a bit more stable and mature. I certainly will be supporting it in the future, I'm sure several others will as well.
- There are still people here who do contribute. Mark1 and Tii with there million tables a week, others every once in a while, I released another key thing in the FPX template to get new people started.
-Which brings me to the next point. I have been having a good look at vpx. It can do a lot of things, a lot of people have put in a lot of time, but it's way to complex, and too cabinet and VPMame focused. In fact, the download numbers just are not that good for originals, the average FP table numbers are a lot better, and with all the changes in vpx, they are just leaving more and more people behind. FP for all it's warts still has a major advantage. At least more people can use it because it is a far simpler system. Both FP and VP can co-exist, people can learn with FP, then later on when they are ready do vpx as well.

But, there are a couple things I agree with, some I can say will be fixed in time by themselves, others, like the BAM stuff, needs a bit of work and reorganization. Running through nearly 200 pages to find information is not a good thing. I sure appreciate the work of Gimli and George, but the truth with me is I just don't have the time to go through all that, I have enough on my plate as it is. Maybe Rav can use that new thread and repost his examples/scripts etc.

For my part, I had thought of moving to vpx, but the positive changes here have meant that my next project, Jungle Girl, will be for FP/BAM. I don't have much time, and I am also learning Unity and C# scripting, but I feel that if the installer works, and information and examples to the various BAM were easier accessible, it makes it more justifiable with the time it would take me to build.

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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:59 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2219
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
but I have a big problem, I can not release the pinball nes table, with bam, that crash every three four times...


Paolo, when you and Gianfranco say it crashes every 3 or 4 times...I thought this would only effect table developers who keep escaping and reloading table during the same FP session? If so then the crashing will not occur for anyone else in your new table who is simply playing it

when I am tweaking a table , I save it prior to reloading in case of a crash.

I never have a crash (except for my scripting errors) while I am playing a table

I wonder if using the 64 bit version of FP will help....


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:50 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:54 pm
Posts: 1074
Location: Sicily-Italy
blue wrote:
I can understand the frustration


ok,but you have tried this installation?

blue wrote:
There are still people here who do contribute. Mark1 and Tii with there million tables


they do not make tables with bam.

gimli wrote:
Paolo, when you and Gianfranco say it crashes every 3 or 4 times...I thought this would only effect table developers who keep escaping and reloading table during the same FP session? If so then the crashing will not occur for anyone else in your new table who is simply playing it


I do not understand what you want to tell me.

gimli wrote:
when I am tweaking a table , I save it prior to reloading in case of a crash.

I never have a crash (except for my scripting errors) while I am playing a table

I wonder if using the 64 bit version of FP will help....


to every object that I add, I save, always.
I had never had problems with crashes, with other versions of bam, which I do not remember which I had before, 185 or 187.....

me and gianfranco we had problems, when you passed to me the version 190,and a new dll in a pm,(do you remember) I said this to you, and also to rav.

I have wimdows 64.....and also GF.
let's talk clear, I open my table, and I work, save, and I try what I do, as I repeat this passage three times and here is the crash, when I'm about to open the table, gives me an error, like that of GF.

how would you define this crash?

now rav, you know, but he told me that there could be problems, related to the PC, or if you load an extra table in the same editor, but I do not, and repeat I never had this error before.

holy heaven, if i had crash problems, with krull, or dragon keep, you seriously think i would not have said that after many months of testing?????


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 2219
Location: Ontario, Canada
Ok but my point is it won't crash for people playing the table only


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:57 am 
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 4:57 pm
Posts: 1063
Location: Turin-ITALY
I'm sorry you opened another discussion about "FP2.0".
This only serves to disperse our energies and make complicated to use Bam.
Too many words ......... bla,bla,bla
For now I'm waiting for the answer from Rav ...... a little patience.
Greetings

Gianfranco


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:02 pm
Posts: 937
wild wrote:
...
I have wimdows 64.....and also GF.
let's talk clear, I open my table, and I work, save, and I try what I do, as I repeat this passage three times and here is the crash, when I'm about to open the table, gives me an error, like that of GF.

how would you define this crash?

now rav, you know, but he told me that there could be problems, related to the PC, or if you load an extra table in the same editor, but I do not, and repeat I never had this error before.

holy heaven, if i had crash problems, with krull, or dragon keep, you seriously think i would not have said that after many months of testing?????

It will sound like typical IT support sentence: Did you try to turn OFF and ON?

I have to make it clear, so here is detailed description of few cases:

Case 1:
- You run FP
- Press CTRL-N
- wait until new table loads,
- Press CTRL-N (again) .... wait
- Press CTRL-N (again) ... wait
Now: You have 3 tables loaded into FP Editor (check Window FP menu). If you think, that you have opened only one table you are wrong.
If you replace CTRL-N with Files->Open ("mytable.fpt") 3 times, you will end with "mytable.fpt" opened 3 times. FP have to split own resources for 3 tables, it does not matter, that it is same table.

Case 2:
- You run FP
- Files->Open table (one you are working)
- edit it
- Files->Save
- Click Files menu and select table from most-recent-used (first one on list), it is same table you saved few seconds ago
- edit it
Now: You have 2 tables opened same time (check Window FP menu). First table is in state from last save, second is after second edit. Both tables are in memory. If you open too many tables or repeat Edit->Save->Open sequence many times, FP will crash.
This is FP bug (or result of limitations).

Case 3:
- You run FP
- Files->Open table
- edit
- Files->Save
- Files->Close (here is difference in comparision to case 2).... you can see "empty" FP window without any table loaded.
- Files menu, press 1 to load table you just saved
- edit it
Now: You have only 1 opened table at this time.

Case 4:
- You run FP
- Files->Open table (one you are working)
- edit it
- Files->Save
- we have already table loaded, so we don't load it again
- edit it
- Files->Save
- test table (F5)
- edit
- Files->Save
- test table (F5)
.... repeat last 3 steps many time.
Now: You have only 1 opened table. All should work. FP should not crash.

@wild:
If you do "case 2" FP will crash and this has nothing to do with BAM or BAM version.
If you do something different, please check "Window" FP menu and give me detailed description.
So, are you sure, that you did not change your "usage pattern"?

I feel bad, that i have to make that questions. I just don't have any clue why it crashes for you. I realy spend a lot of time trying to reproduce problem. Here is only list of clues i have:
- v 187 works
- v 190 or later not
- windows 7 (?) 64 bit, italian version (i don't belive it does matter)... is it SP1? ... is it fully updated?
I don't know, but for example if 4 years age there was bug related to vbscript introduced in may and fixed in jun... and you have bad luck and you installed that win 7 in may 2013.... well i have near 0 chance to find what is wrong. I don't know about that bug, but who knows.

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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 4:57 pm
Posts: 1063
Location: Turin-ITALY
ravarcade wrote:
.......If you do "case 2" FP will crash and this has nothing to do with BAM or BAM version.
If you do something different, please check "Window" FP menu and give me detailed description.
So, are you sure, that you did not change your "usage pattern"?......


Well Rafal, i do so:

1- File Open xxxxxx
2- Modify
3- F5 (test)
4- ESC (for break table)

I repeat from point 2 to 4 many,many times . All Ok

If After modify I save the table ,after 2 modify Bam go to crash at the end of loader
Greetings

Gianfranco


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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:50 am
Posts: 1131
Location: Paris - France
franzleo wrote:
ravarcade wrote:
.......If you do "case 2" FP will crash and this has nothing to do with BAM or BAM version.
If you do something different, please check "Window" FP menu and give me detailed description.
So, are you sure, that you did not change your "usage pattern"?......


Well Rafal, i do so:

1- File Open xxxxxx
2- Modify
3- F5 (test)
4- ESC (for break table)

I repeat from point 2 to 4 many,many times . All Ok

If After modify I save the table ,after 2 modify Bam go to crash at the end of loader
Greetings

Gianfranco

Just send the original table to ravarcade and tell him the modifications you made.
More easy way to debug...

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 Post subject: Re: About bam,fp,and the chatter.
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:44 am 
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Joined: Tue May 01, 2012 11:13 pm
Posts: 350
Location: Abbotsford
Gianfranco. I use the 64 bit zed exe as my default exe, with BAM. I had problems with the constant crashing as well, but every other exe is just 32 bit, and you can only "address" 4 gigs of memory, while the 64 bit can address far more memory, and is greater optimized. Most of us use 64bit Windows, and using a 64 bit version of FP just works far better.

I also change a couple settings in the properties, and that helps a lot. Right click on the dektop icon, select properties, goto the Compatibility tab, Make sure Run this program as an administrator has a check mark (on) and especially make sure Disable display scaling on high DPI settings is checked as that will cause a lot of crashes by itself. I also disable FP saving backup files, since I have done this it seems to be a lot better. Very rarely have I had a crash since.

I also switch off my graphic card settings, and just use stock FP like anti-alias settings etc.

As to BAM, I think the biggest reason we don't use it is because none of us can understand it. It's a bit too high end and on a different level. I can't, and remember, I wrote shivaEngine2, which still is one of the most complex and high end scoring and logic engines ever released. I think though, especially if people go through all those pages, and post them up in that new thread, it would be far easier to make sense of, and as time goes on, more and more features will be used as we understand them better.

I have released tables with bam physics, Jungle Girl, the prototype uses custom xml, and I will fold in any additional BAM code as well. At the moment, the prototype uses Popottes star trek script, but I will transfer the code to the FPX template so people have a true working table to see exactly what FPX can do. In fact, was thinking about doing one better, making it a more community based table, having the people here contribute to it, to show what FP/BAM can actually do. This way we all can learn and teach each other at the same time. It's a classic 1982 type Bally, pf art is almost done, (Not plastics yet) could do with help to get it out sooner, even little things, and I already have the bulk of the hit code all worked out and running under prototype. (has a great skill shot) What say all of you?

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