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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:22 pm 
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If you could maybe release a table next that's also out in 2.5, 2.6 and ZED so we can give honest feedback? Easier comparing different physics on the same table.

Appreciate the work you're putting in.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:30 pm 
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47PinballD wrote:
If you could maybe release a table next that's also out in 2.5, 2.6 and ZED so we can give honest feedback? Easier comparing different physics on the same table.

Appreciate the work you're putting in.


Different versions have varying degrees of quality depending on who did them and when they were done but Funhouse and Whirlwind are both coming (in testing still) so you will have a reference point soon enough. Those are two of my all-time favourite tables so I'm taking a long time to test and tweak them, and since both tables have very complicated playfields (Williams much harder to adjust for realism than Gottlieb) it takes a lot longer. Fireball Ultra is almost done and I post soon, then after that all my work goes into Funhouse and Whirlwind. At least one of those tables should be released by Sunday.

Also I tested ZPB extensively today (Whirlwind table) to make sure I am not duplicating work already done more effectively, or using a system inferior to another system, and I can confirm that I am not. I can state categorically that I can do the physics much better using the system I'm using now. I am 100% certain, but you can judge for yourself of course. The options and functionality of postprocessing lighting is always nice to have, but this feature will likely appear via a better and more powerful method soon, plus this is built into BAM anyway and you don't need ZPB for it, so you can still have your ball trails/postprocess/etc just like ZPB uses but with my physics. Did I mention those settings are automatically saved by BAM per table as well? ;)

edit: Fireball is up, enjoy. I copied the few Youtube videos I could find for the play flow and its very addicting and enjoyable. SLAMT1LT added extra slings on the sides (real one seems to only have regular bumpers) but I kept them in because the play flows better and ball doesn't overpower up like it does with regular bumpers (on a higher power setting, slingshot bumper has low power setting). One of the dozens of sample concerns I have to deal with on every table balance. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:35 pm 
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My biggest complaint with FP was always the physics so good on you for making improvements. I don't like that the tables will be fragmented in respect to where they get downloaded but you gotta do what ya gotta do.

This hobby is a bit of a strange one in the sense that it's so much easier to deal with the constant changes and cab babysitting when you're really involved. When you step away from it a bit to where it becomes just an occasional fun thing then the frustration starts to build, I never saw or understood it until it happened to me.

Thank goodness for the knowledgeable and patient people we have around here.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 6:45 pm 
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jasonsmith01 wrote:
My biggest complaint with FP was always the physics so good on you for making improvements. I don't like that the tables will be fragmented in respect to where they get downloaded but you gotta do what ya gotta do.

This hobby is a bit of a strange one in the sense that it's so much easier to deal with the constant changes and cab babysitting when you're really involved. When you step away from it a bit to where it becomes just an occasional fun thing then the frustration starts to build, I never saw or understood it until it happened to me.

Thank goodness for the knowledgeable and patient people we have around here.


Agreed on all points. Pinball burnout has already happened to me a few months back and I don't even have a cab yet. I setup over 40 tables for 2.5 before realizing how much better I could do with BAM so I started over. That's like 150-200 hours I'll never get back, but I did learn an awful lot and now I can do a really top job using custom XMLs and the tricks I've learned through all the work I've done to date. Every table I work on I learn something new as well, so its not a total loss.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:51 pm 
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We'll most likely get these 2.7 builds on PSD... Especially now with the added Tagging system. Just need to work out a few details first :)

jasonsmith01 wrote:
My biggest complaint with FP was always the physics so good on you for making improvements. I don't like that the tables will be fragmented in respect to where they get downloaded but you gotta do what ya gotta do.

This hobby is a bit of a strange one in the sense that it's so much easier to deal with the constant changes and cab babysitting when you're really involved. When you step away from it a bit to where it becomes just an occasional fun thing then the frustration starts to build, I never saw or understood it until it happened to me.

Thank goodness for the knowledgeable and patient people we have around here.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 9:54 pm 
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open6l wrote:
... Especially now with the added Tagging system.


Oh good news, looking forward to seeing it in action.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:10 am 
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open6l wrote:
We'll most likely get these 2.7 builds on PSD... Especially now with the added Tagging system. Just need to work out a few details first :)


You're doing a great job on PSDB, all of you guys. The site layout, content, selection, speed are all top notch. Far better than other, similar enthusiast communities. Excellent work. :)

edit: Just added Funhouse. As a FH fan myself I'm sure other FH fans out there will appreciate this one. I'm also a Taxi fan. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:36 am 
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I fully appreciate the dedication of the people doing this and am very grateful for all the amazing work, I'm just saying, as are others, that it's getting complicated for the casual user and maybe an idiot's guide or a simple frontloader, prominently stickied would be a bit of a blessing.

I've got a different point of view.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:07 am 
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philbury wrote:
I fully appreciate the dedication of the people doing this and am very grateful for all the amazing work, I'm just saying, as are others, that it's getting complicated for the casual user and maybe an idiot's guide or a simple frontloader, prominently stickied would be a bit of a blessing.

I've got a different point of view.


What I'm doing is an Idiot's Guide. :)

Seriously, read my entire OP and then play Fun House 2.7 -- then realize 2.5/2.6/ZPB is irrelevant for this table forever and that I'm eventually going to do a similar quality job on over 100 of the best available tables for FP. No other electronic rendition of FH has ever been made as balanced and realistically playing. I know because I've played every electronic edition of it that I know of (except PS3/PS4/Portable versions of TPA) and none of them can touch it. There are plenty of "easier" versions, but none with realistic physics like this that also plays much like the real thing. Play it and tell me I'm wrong!

I don't spend 4-20 hours preparing 2.7 per table because I lack knowledge or passion regarding pinball or because I lack knowledge of simulations that involve physics, but applying FP physics to feel realistic and flow in a similar fashion to the real table is very difficult when you are simulating something as complex as pinball with a fairly rudimentary physics engine and artificial dimensions/mistakes on most of the existing tables. It's hard, but I know how to do it now because after 4 solid months of work I understand what is required. There's dozens of details... bumper flow, friction coefficient calculations, protecting against ball-leaving-playfield simulation/physics errata, and balancing the ball's weight against the friction of the playfield, gravity, damping, etc, and those are just a few examples. Each table is totally unique in this respect, and so even though I can pull out some base values that work as a starting point for most tables, no table, I repeat NO TABLE will have the same physics settings as another table for 2.7 physics. It's simply not accurate or effective.

I understand you're finding all of this hard to track, but I suspect things will get better very soon as more people start to understand that I'm jumping 2.5/2.6/ZPB with higher quality versions that actually require less work to both get working properly and administer/update in the future, plus they are legacy compatible so all you have to do when starting from scratch is install/configure FP, extract BAM to /bam in FP directory, drop in table packages (that include BAM compatible 2.7 physics XML files) and play. It could not be much simpler!

I'm sure eventually we will have installers and frontends that hold the hand from start to finish, but for now we're doing the best we can and following technical developments really isn't very complicated compared to other simulators. You should see rFactor. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Lets get this ball rolling... [2.7 physics release threa
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:55 am 
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...then realize 2.5/2.6/ZPB is irrelevant for this table forever and that I'm eventually going to do a similar quality job on over 100 of the best available tables for FP. No other electronic rendition of FH has ever been made as balanced and realistically playing. I know because I've played every electronic edition of it that I know of (except PS3/PS4/Portable versions of TPA) and none of them can touch it. There are plenty of "easier" versions, but none with realistic physics like this that also plays much like the real thing. Play it and tell me I'm wrong!


until you realize that FP is CPU(or whatever) dependent and don't run the same on my computer than it does on yours even with the best physics recipe in the world.

..and also until next week, when a newbie just come up and say : "you know what! forget about that 2.7 version...my 2.8 is a lot more better..."

you guys really don't get it, You are killing it for a lot of us. My current state is that I have personally removed everything FP related on my cabinet just to keep Pinball Arcade and Pinball Fx2.

I don't care About cooler GFX and super duper physics anymore, I need just plain simplicity...And despite the opinions, this is what these two give me.

We used to laugh about how confusing the multi versions of VP tables was, now look at us.

If I came to think like that, a lot more people will.

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